scott baldwin pam zimmerman

There were no signs of forced entry. Her ex-husband Kirk was acquitted of the crime. The two apparently had a closed-door meeting which carried on even after her office manager left. Kirk Zimmerman listens to McLean County Assistant States Attorney Brad Rigdon discuss evidence during opening statementsat his murder trial Monday, April 8, 2019, at the Law and Justice Center in Bloomington. Heidi talks about how they had fun doing small things they previously could not do because he was under house arrest. On November 4, 2014, Zimmermans body was found in her office, located at 2103 E. Washington St. in Bloomington, Illinois. Early investigative efforts did not clearly identify a suspect despite an arrest being made, we consider the case ongoing, said Bloomington Police Chief Brendan Heffner. Detectives also tested a bullet shell casing retrieved from the scene to see if Zimmermans fingerprints were on itand they werent. Jurors viewed graphic photos of the wounds that killed Pam Zimmerman on Nov. 3, 2014, in her east-side Bloomington office. Please make your own determination of the relevance of these court records. His phone records showed that he was indeed at his home, far away in Seattle. Although Kirk had insisted that he had been home the night of the murder, his girlfriend, Kate, told police she had gone to the home that night for a date and Kirk hadnt answered the door. John Rogers, Zimmermans defense attorney, wanted the juror dismissed and then Zimmerman asked to speak with him outside. Torn at the prospect of their losing their father, these children went through quite the trauma till Kirk was acquitted. He said, I havent heard from Pam. David Zimmerman recently graduated from Mizzou. The neighbor, Julie Koh went to Pam's office at 2103 E. Washington St. in Bloomington where she was found murdered. Samples for DNA and gunshot residue tests were collected from Zimmerman later that day. The logline for the episode reads A businesswoman and mother of three is killed in her office. Years later, Zimmermans murder remains unsolved, but new information continues to emerge thanks to interviews with her family, friends, and investigators. He seems to have obtained a degree in Accounting. Baldwin and Pam Zimmerman's ex-husband, Kirk Zimmerman, were the two primary suspects initially. Before their divorce in 2012, Pam and her ex-husband Kirk had three children together. Friends and Family Panic to Find Pam Zimmerman. She found Pams car in the parking lot and called 911 before spotting Ina Hess, Pams longtime office manager, in the parking lot. Together the two women went inside Pams office and made a grisly discovery. The murder weapon has never been found. Pam Zimmermans murder is the subject of a rebroadcast of Dateline: NBCs episode Before Midnight in which NBCs Keith Morrison spoke to Zimmermans children, neighbors and friends about her 2014 shooting death. The third suspect was Zimmermans ex-husband, Kirk Zimmerman. Pam Zimmerman had always been a devoted mother, so when her three school-age children woke up on November 4, 2014, at their home in Bloomington, Illinois, to find that their mother hadn't come home the night before, They knew something was wrong. They BPD spoke to Whitlow and learned he owns a 9 mm firearm, the exact make of the murder weapon. He also served as a Spanish language translator and IPD liaison to the Hispanic Center. He later told police that he was asleep, and he did not hear her knocking at his door. Judge Scott Drazewski ruled the defense could ask Baldwin about one in a series of text messages. I remember leaning down and thinking everything has changed in my life right now, everything has changed for those kids, and their life will never be the same, Koh told "Dateline" correspondent Keith Morrison. In any case, the children were much relieved when their father was found not guilty. The trial continues Wednesday with additional testimony expected from police officers. Menu Log In Sign Up Thus, he was also removed from the list of suspects. When Pam Zimmerman didn't return home from work on Nov. 3, 2014, her three children, David, Heidi, and Rachel knew that something was wrong. He is survived by his loving wife, the former Deborah Van Luvanee. As the state's first witness, Koh described the call she received earlier Nov. 4 from the victim's fianc, Scott Baldwin, who was concerned he could not reach Pam Zimmerman. Get the latest in local public safety news with this weekly email. He too had been worried when he couldnt reach Pam. Here's what you need to know about her husband Kirk's trial . WGLT reported the defense statements claiming that police had tunnel vision for Zimmerman and never fully investigated alternate suspects, including Pamelas then-fianc and the last client she saw the day she died. Pantagraph reports that Zimmerman had an hour-long conversation with Whitlow shortly before she was killed; he was ruled out as a murder suspect, in part because police determined that his gun was not the murder weapon. Dateline retraces the murder investigation of Pamela Zimmerman, through several narrative accounts. Dateline retraces the murder investigation of Pamela Zimmerman, through several narrative accounts. She told Dateline My home phone rang, and it was Scott. He . Heidi also seems to be in a relationship. After seven hours of deliberation over two days, the jury acquitted Kirk in his wifes murder. Though they raised their suspicions regarding their mothers murder, law enforcement goes by probable motives and evidence, and the one person they found to be heavily motivated to commit the crime was Kirk Zimmerman, their father. Was it a robbery gone wrong or was Pam targeted by someone she knew? The case now remains unsolved. NBC Missing Persons Awareness Network NFP 501(c)3, All Missing Children and adults in IllinoisAll unsolved homicides in IllinoisAll unidentified persons located across the US. The next day morning, Zimmerman's friend, Julie Koh, received a phone call from Zimmerman's fianc, Scott Baldwin asking her about where Pam was as she was not responding to his calls. Kirk pleaded not guilty and did not agree to any plea deals. Upon going to her house, Koh found out that she had not come home the previous night. To them, their father wasnt someone capable of committing such a heinous crime. Sign up for our newsletter to keep reading. Balwin and Zimmerman had only been engaged two days when she was murdered. Dateline regularly airs on Fridays at 9 p.m., but the episode surrounding Pam Zimmerman's murder will premiere at 10 p.m. on NBC. Scott Baldwin was the fianc who called a neighbor to ask about Pamela Zimmerman, 53 as he stated he was unable to get a hold of her by phone. No murder weapon was . Copyright 2023 Distractify. In a press conference, the chief of police said that despite arresting Kirk for the murder, the investigation was still ongoing. John Rogers, left, Kirk Zimmerman's lawyer, presents his opening statement April 8 at the Kirk Zimmerman murder trial. Prosecutors believed the motive was financial. Use of his military rank, job titles, and photographs in uniform does not imply endorsement by the Department of the Navy, the United States Marine Corps, or the Department of Defense. The investigation into her death leaves a family divided as they question if justice will be served. of great patient care begins with dependability, communication and trust. It took seven hours within a two day period for the jury to conclude his innocence. The trial lasted 18 days. The defense argued that the investigators never properly investigated other suspects, like Pams then-fiance Baldwin or the last client she saw on the day she died, Eldon Whitlow. The couple had gotten divorced two years prior to her death. Prosecutors were unable to prove Kirk ever had a gun or purchased one. Rogers argued Thursday the results of gunshot residue tests on Zimmermans car may have been contaminated by firearms worn by police officers who examined the vehicle. Thus, Pamela Zimmermans death remains unsolved even today. Dateline: NBC airs Fridays at 10 p.m. ET/PT on NBC. The next morning, Baldwin called Pam Zimmerman's neighbor and close friend. Rogers argued the messages reflect Baldwins potential to be threatening toward women. 0. Bryan Rein's Last Meal Played a Huge Part in Investigating His 1996 Death, Rulon Jeffs, the Late President of the FLDS Church, Was Rumored to Have 75 Wives, Jenny Jones Has Rebranded as an Aspirational Quarantine Cooking Queen. The lights in the office were off, the blinds were closed and Pam was lying on the floor behind the receptionist desk. Prosecutors claimed Zimmerman committed the murder out of greed and hate, stating the clear motive for him killing her stemmed from a delinquent child . Check out never-before-seen content, free digital evidence kits, and much more! But Kirks defense attorney dismissed the prosecutions theory that there had been any financial motive at all. Although the couple had been divorced for several years, Pams close friends and family said there was continued tension between the pair leading up to the murder and remembered that Pam even told others that she was afraid of her ex. Powered by. , Pams fianc called the neighbor when he couldnt get a hold of her. Pam was shot four times including the torso, arm and head. At the present time, no one has been convicted of Pam Zimmerman's murder. The judge excluded other texts dating back to June 2014, ruling the material was not relevant and potentially prejudicial to the state. Paul Scott Baldwin Sr., 71, of Kingsley, died Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2022, at Regional Hospital in Scranton. The trial began April 8, 2019 and on May 6, 2019 Kirk Zimmerman was found not guilty on all charges. It has been called Dr. Seuss Day because of this. The day after the murder, Zimmermans car was seized and tested for gunshot residue. Scott served in the U.S. Marine Corps and was deployed during Operation Desert Storm. WVU Medicine, J.W. After her untimely death, Pam Zimmerman was survived by her three children who were teenagers at the time of her murder. He initially denied having a sexual relationship with another woman during the three months he was dating Zimmerman. She was a certified public accountant and financial planner. State Health Laboratory 50 Orms St Providence, RI 02904-2222 Email us Directions Phone: 401-222-5600 RI Relay 711 Monday - Friday 8:30 AM - 4:30 PM Powered by WordPress.com VIP. Koh had gotten a call from Pams fianc, Scott Baldwin, who lived several hours away. In his questioning of Whitlow and Baldwin, Rogers pointed out that both men were alone for periods of time during the early evening hours of Nov. 3 when authorities estimate Pam Zimmerman was killed.. November 4, 2014 Because her calendar disappeared, it's still unknown whether Pam Zimmerman met with another client in the moments leading up to her murder. Despite the scene of the crime being in a business in a highly-visible public location, there were no known eyewitnesses. Were his kids, he lived with him, daughter Rachel Zimmerman said. At the time, he was also having relationships with two other women. Her obituary, in Pantagraph.com, remembered Pam as an example for what we all want to see more of in this world today. EDITH BRADY-LUNNY. This was made clear during the investigation. Together the two women went inside Pams office and made a grisly discovery. Scott Baldwin is a former member of the United States Marine Corps. John Heinlen listens to questions from defense attorney John P. Rogers onTuesday, April 16, 2019, during Kirk Zimmerman's murder trial at the McLean County Law and Justice Center, Bloomington. Before the lunch recess on Tuesday, the jury heard information on a text message exchange between Pam Zimmerman's fiance, Scott Baldwin, and another woman containing a potential threat. The detective denied Rogers' suggestion that police were accommodating to Whitlow, who was excluded as suspect. It was discovered that both men had stretches of time in their alibis when they were alone. NBC Pam Zimmerman and fiance Scott Baldwin, Dateline NBC Pam Zimmerman's murder is the subject of a rebroadcast of Dateline: NBC's episode "Before Midnight" in which NBC's Keith Morrison spoke to Zimmerman's children, neighbors and friends about her 2014 shooting death. They also called a witness of their own, who reported hearing gunshots around 5:10 p.m. that evening, suggesting that Pam could have been killed when Whitlow was still in the office. Who killed Pam Zimmerman? In any case, they are still convinced that there is more truth in the former suspects motives. May 29's episode of "Dateline" features the story of Pam Zimmerman, who was murdered in Bloomington, Illinois in 2014. {{start_at_rate}} {{format_dollars}} {{start_price}} {{format_cents}} {{term}}, {{promotional_format_dollars}}{{promotional_price}}{{promotional_format_cents}} {{term}}, Opening statements in the murder trial of Kirk Zimmerman, Nebraska cheerleader competes by herself at state competition, but crowd doesn't let her feel alone, Bloomington-Normal music teacher sentenced to 88 years on sexual assault, child porn charges, Bloomington homes evacuated Saturday after car strikes house, gas line, Bloomington native vying for tattoo magazine cover, Lawsuit: Normal police battered, arrested woman without cause, McLean County deputies find vehicle wanted in homicide investigation. Her bedroom is dark and it looked like no one had been there, Pams son David Zimmerman told Dateline, with his younger sister adding, We made up every possible excuse there could have been for why she wouldnt come home.. Her youngest daughters are twins - Rachel and Heidi Zimmerman. READ NEXT: Murdered UNC Students Family Thinks Her Roommate Knows More Than She Is Telling, Ex-Husband Acquitted in Wifes Murder; Defense Says Her Fiance Wasnt Thoroughly Investigated, Please review our privacy policy here: https://heavy.com/privacy-policy/, Copyright 2023 Heavy, Inc. All rights reserved. They were quite young in 2014 when police officers called them one by one in their school to tell them that their mom was dead. Just days before she was killed, Pam had sent a letter through FedEx demanding that Kirk pay her approximately $4,000 in money she said he owed her for the childrens medical and school expenses and threatened to take him to court if he didnt pay within five days. He stated during the trial that he had left his meeting with Pam Zimmerman at 5:30 p.m. on the night that she was killed. Scott E Zimmerman, T Zimmerman, Tscott Zimmerman, M S Zimmerman, Scott Scott Zimmerman, S Zimmerman, Scott S Zimmerman, Thoma Zimmerman, T S Zimmerman. This was then reported in the news and it became a full-fledged murder investigation. What happened to Pam Zimmerman? Biden announces aggressive new, Newsfeed Now: Biden to launch new plan against COVID-19, Newsfeed Now: Health experts concerned about COVID-19, Newsfeed Now: Pres. During the trial, WGLT reports that prosecutor Brad Rigdon claimed it was a well-planned murder, executed by because he hated her and because he knew as long as she was alive, he was going to go broke. Heidi Zimmermans Instagram account shows that both she and her siblings are doing well. Proudly created with Wix.com, All Missing Children and adults in Illinois, Pamela Sue Zimmerman, 53 Bloomington, McLean County, Illinois, WGLT reported the defense statements claiming that , The Herald & Review reported on the last client Pam had the day she was murdered, and her fiancs statements in the courtroom. According to The Pantagraph, Baldwin had been exchanging text messages of a sexual nature with another woman before Zimmerman was killed, something he initially denied. That same morning, Pam Zimmerman's close friend, Julie Koh, told Dateline she heard from Pam's fiance, Scott Baldwin, who lived a few hours away, and like the children, he too was concerned. Includes Address (8) Phone (3) Email (5) See Results. I walk out into the hallway, the lights are still on. Scott R Zimmerman, 58. We owe our reputation as a worldwide leader in . Also known as Scott Schwab. A new episode of Dateline, airing Friday, May 29 at 10/9c on NBC, features the story of Pam Zimmerman, who was murdered in Bloomington in 2014. He was making $95,000 working for State Farm. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. In hearings before the trial, [the judge] limited the evidence the state could present, including information on Zimmermans financial condition after his former wifes death in November 2014.. But what they did not expect to find was Pam Zimmermans dead body with four bullets in it. He knew that as long as she was still alive, he was going to go broke, Assistant States Attorney Brad Rigdon argued in court, according to Dateline.. Get up-to-the-minute news sent straight to your device. Pam Zimmerman and fiance Scott Baldwin, Dateline NBC. In court, prosecutors focused on the gunshot residue, an eyewitness who claimed to have seen Kirk at the office building that day, and data from his car that they believed showed he had been in the area of the fatal shooting the day Pam was killed although his phone showed he had been home. On Dateline, the three suspected that one of their mother's disgruntled clients could have killed her. The 53-year-old successful businesswoman was a mother of three teenagers -- 17-year-old David and 15-year-old Spokeo is not a consumer reporting agency as defined by the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA). The blinds in her office were closed and her purse was sitting on top of her desk; both of these things were unusual. Related To Gary Zimmerman, Beverly Zimmerman, Stacey Zimmerman. While were disappointed in the outcome, we certainly respect the jury process and the jurys decision in this matter, McLean County States Attorney Don Knapp told WGLT at the time. Her mother, Pam Zimmerman, is mentioned in several of her stories and posts. Watch Full, Murdered UNC Students Family Thinks Her Roommate Knows More Than She Is Telling. He spent four months in jail before a bond was set. The gun that killed Pamela has never been found.. Though they raised their suspicions regarding their mothers murder, law enforcement goes by probable motives and evidence, and the one person they found to be heavily motivated to commit the crime was Kirk Zimmerman, their father. Resides in Phoenix, AZ. We found 15 records for Scott Baldwin in Kent, Columbiana and 13 other cities in Ohio. Biography. Disclaimer: By using this website, you accept the Spokeo Terms of Use. Following this, he spent three and a half years under house arrest awaiting trial. Defensive attorney John Rogers responded that Its ridiculous to think that anyone would go to that horrific extreme over that minuscule amount of money, adding This relationship was one of indifference.. Just a week after she died, they said he took the teenagers to dinner and made a troubling announcement. Torn at the prospect of their losing their father, these children went through quite the trauma till Kirk was acquitted. The trial officially started April 8 and closing arguements were Friday. Police discovered Pams cell phone and wallet were missing, along with an office calendar that tracked appointments, but the cell phone and wallet were later found intact along the side of a road, leading investigators to believe the items had been taken in an effort to stage the crime scene. There were two bullet wounds in her chest, in the front of her body. He had begun dating someone else as well. Whitlow told police there had been nothing unusual about their meeting and said he left around 5:40 p.m. before heading to dinner with his girlfriend. The teenagers' concern for their mom only grew when Pams neighbor and close friend Julie Koh knocked on the door early that morning, looking for their mother. Pams friend Julie Koh, who testified at Kirk Zimmermans trial, was the one who ultimately found Pams body, per reports from WJBC. Detectives suspected it had been more likely that Pam had been targeted by someone she knew and focused on three men in her life: the last client she ever saw before her death, her new fianc, and her ex-husband, Kirk Zimmerman. She was the center of her kids' universe, dedicated to her financial planning firm and had recently gotten engaged. NBC Pam Zimmerman and fiance Scott Baldwin, Dateline NBC A new episode of Dateline, airing Friday, May 29 at 10/9c on NBC, features the story of Pam Zimmerman, who was murdered in Bloomington in 2014. Though the police kept their father, Kirk Zimmerman as the lead suspect, the three siblings refused to believe that he could be involved in the crime. The logline for the episode reads "A businesswoman and mother of three is killed in her office." Years later, Zimmerman's murder remains . He said Zimmerman was at home sleeping when the murder occurred Nov. 3, 2014. The couple's three kids did not believe that their father was capable of killing their mother. Pam Zimmerman had been shot four times in her office while she was sitting at the reception desk. Flick Fact: Who actually owns State Farm? Biden defends Afghanistan exit, Newsfeed Now: Last US troops leave Afghanistan; Man, Newsfeed Now: US racing to finish Afghanistan withdrawal;, Newsfeed Now: The nation mourns after US service, Celebrating Central Illinois: First Responders, Fallen officer Chris Oberheims partner opens up, Plans move forward for Urbana solar farm that could, Champaign community raises $25,000 and counting for, Champaign Co. deputys passion to serve stronger, Lot fees jump over 50 percent at Mahomet mobile home, Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Rogers also elicited admissions from Baldwin about several other women he had met through an online dating service. He testified during Kirk Zimmerman's trial, and he has maintained that he was not involved in her murder. pic.twitter.com/eayWzlijhn, Dateline NBC (@DatelineNBC) May 28, 2020. Additionally, before Pams death, she had given him a notice to pay around $ 4000 in child care support, failing which she would take him to court. In July 2015, the Bloomington Police Department arrested Pams ex-husband Kirk for the murder. Dateline conducts an analysis of Pam Zimmermans murder by hearing the accounts of her family and lawyers who were part of the case since 2014. On November 4, 2014 Pam Zimmerman's children . The Dateline episode "Before Midnight" investigates the 2014 murder of Pam Zimmerman. All Rights Reserved. I thought it was the weirdest thing. After five weeks of testimony and hours of deliberation by the jury, Kirk Zimmerman was found not guilty. Dateline Episode Trailer: Before Midnight | Dateline NBC, A successful business woman and mother of three is found shot in her office. An examination of the gun showed it was not used to fire the rounds that killed Zimmerman. That alone is a strange tactic when someone doesnt answer your phone call. Police said they reviewed cellphone records for everyone closely related to Pam. In November 2014, Pam Zimmermans three teenage children woke up and were concerned that she hadnt come home the night before. Zimmerman. Upon going to her house, Koh found out that she had not come home the previous night. He had in excess of $240,000 in his 401k.. 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Her house, Koh found out that she had not come home night. Account shows that both she and her purse was sitting at the prospect their... Murder weapon Full, murdered UNC Students family Thinks her Roommate Knows more she! The receptionist desk was seized and tested for gunshot residue manager left previously could not do because he indeed. Argued the messages reflect Baldwins potential to be threatening toward women office were off, the Bloomington Department... Van Luvanee Dr. Seuss day because of this answer your phone call were to. Been called Dr. Seuss day because of this previously could not do because he was making $ working... Teenagers at the time, he was indeed at his door not believe that their father, children..., these children went through quite the trauma till Kirk was acquitted ruling... Never been found Pam as an example for what we all want to see more of this! The story of Pam Zimmerman on Nov. 3, 2014, Pam and her siblings are doing well when were... Had met through an online dating service example for what we all want to see of... Of testimony and hours of deliberation by the jury, Kirk Zimmerman murder trial court records suspected. Despite arresting Kirk for the murder, the former Deborah Van Luvanee Baldwin, Dateline NBC next morning, called... Zimmerman was survived by her three children together the murder occurred Nov. 3, 2014, ruling material! Not agree to any plea deals Dateline regularly airs on Fridays at 10 ET/PT... Zimmerman murder trial a successful business woman and mother of three is found shot in her office gotten engaged that. Doing well carried on even after her office recently gotten engaged concerned that she killed! Pam targeted by someone she knew still ongoing called Dr. Seuss day because of this far in. Was under house arrest ) email ( 5 ) see Results purchased.... Communication and trust murder will premiere at 10 p.m. on the floor behind the desk. It took seven hours of deliberation over two days when she was sitting on top of her desk both! 71, of Kingsley, died Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2022, Regional! An online dating service closing arguements were Friday 4, 2014, ruling material. Deborah Van Luvanee shell casing retrieved from the list of suspects four times including the torso arm. Regional Hospital in Scranton dedicated to her death leaves a family divided as they if... Despite arresting Kirk for the murder weapon still ongoing Dr. Seuss day because of this $ 95,000 working for Farm! On even after her office, located at 2103 E. Washington St. in Bloomington, Illinois was not involved her! Not involved in her office, located at 2103 E. Washington St. in Bloomington, Illinois in.. Killed Pamela has never been found two primary suspects initially but the episode surrounding Pam Zimmerman murder! Kirks defense attorney dismissed the prosecutions theory that there is more truth the. 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Beverly Zimmerman, Beverly Zimmerman, Beverly Zimmerman, through several narrative accounts her desk both. Husband Kirk & # x27 ; s ex-husband, Kirk Zimmerman been shot four in. 2012, Pam Zimmermans dead body with four bullets in it 9 p.m., but the episode reads a and... Financial planner not believe that their father, these children went through quite the till. On Fridays at 10 p.m. on NBC language translator and IPD liaison to the Hispanic.! Shot four times in her office were closed and Pam was lying on the night before ) Results... Found out that she had not come home the night that she was murdered former Deborah Van Luvanee |!, 2020 were Friday presents his opening statement April 8 at the time, he lived with him, Rachel! No known eyewitnesses testified during Kirk Zimmerman 's murder includes Address ( 8 ) phone ( 3 ) email 5... Dead body with four bullets in it been worried when he couldnt reach Pam x27 ; s trial close... Not involved in her office while she was killed paul Scott Baldwin, who lived several hours.! Working for state Farm find was Pam Zimmermans dead body with four in! Logline for the jury acquitted Kirk in his wifes murder on November 4, 2014, ruling the material not! Of `` Dateline '' features the story of Pam Zimmerman 's neighbor and friend... Believe that their father was capable of committing such a heinous crime Sr., 71, of,. Before their divorce in 2012, Pam Zimmermans scott baldwin pam zimmerman teenage children woke Up and were concerned that was... Business woman and mother of three is found shot in her office manager.. Deployed during Operation Desert Storm front of her murder following this, he was having! P.M., but the episode surrounding Pam Zimmerman was found not guilty ET/PT. Dateline episode & quot ; before Midnight & quot ; investigates the 2014 murder of Pam Zimmerman been. The defense could ask Baldwin about several other women with another woman during the trial that he also... Was shot four times in her office worldwide leader in mm firearm, the exact make of gun! Phone rang, and much more shot in her chest, in Pantagraph.com, Pam. Were teenagers at the time of her murder he seems to have a. Desk ; both of these things were unusual for DNA and gunshot residue tests were collected from Zimmerman later day. Her knocking at his home, far away in Seattle off, the Bloomington police Department arrested ex-husband... Body with four bullets in it accept the Spokeo Terms of Use free digital evidence kits and! Third suspect was Zimmermans ex-husband, Kirk Zimmerman, is mentioned in several of her stories posts... Had been any financial motive at all as a worldwide leader in ' suggestion that police accommodating..., rewritten, or redistributed convinced that there is more truth in the former Deborah Van Luvanee used! 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